Gay

I want to muddy the waters just a bit.  I resonate with what Jack is saying; however, if you examine the experience of an avid runner, an avid marathon runner, or rock/mountain climber, then you find the flow state. I wouldn’t get to that flow state if I were to run a marathon, because I’m not conditioned that way.

Bill B

The other thing is what Mark was talking about. This is the creative act.  For instance, I absolutely hate writing. Yet, I spend three or four hours a day writing. And it’s in the midst of the writing challenge that I find flow. An hour passed and I didn’t know it.  I am totally immersed. And I suspect, Mark, that it is that way for you too. It is a challenge. And, you know, it is addictive in some ways.  I’m sure, Jack, there are multiple things involved in having fun. It’s interesting to note how this study of Fun relates to the emerging emphasis in 21^st Century psychology on what is called “positive psychology”. Attention is being directed to things that are going well, rather than just focusing on neuroses, depression, whatever. What are the conditions that lead to joy and fun and happiness?

Bill G

Well, I think part of what we’re not considering is the very dynamic nature of Fun. I was an ice climber for many years when I was younger. I found out that you can start out with pain, and you realize that your crampons weren’t tightened quite enough and that your calves are cramping. And then you kind of get in a flow state where the ice picks are sticking properly. And then suddenly you realize that the ice screws are peeling out and you’re going to take a fall. And you go from that flow state and perhaps a squirt of oxytocin to the zone of sheer terror. You hope to hell that the next pin will hold. So, I think there’s a very dynamic quality to this that we’re not considering. I don’t know if that’s measured in any of the research. I mean, they don’t have continuous blood sampling as the athlete goes from, “oh, this is pretty painful to, oh, wow, I really am doing well.“ And I’m kind of in the zone. And then suddenly you realize that you have hit the wall. What are the hormones doing during that transition? I don’t know if that’s been studied at all.

Bill B

This would relate to that whole allostatic process that Peter Sterling identified. There is dynamic and constant measuring and feedback that goes back and forth.